Redefining the Professional Hair Industry in Europe for a Global Industry Leader
Editor’s note: Editor’s note: This article is an automated speech-to-text transcription, edited lightly for clarity. Due to copyright rules, Quirk’s is unable to publish a portion of the recorded presentation (16:48-18:01). However, the original audio is included. We apologize for any inconvenience.
For the past three years, VisionsLive has been working with one of the hair industry’s leading brands to better understand the hair market in the DACH region (incl. Luxembourg) and by extension, the rest of Europe.
This research not only expanded VisionsLive expertise but also uncovered a hidden portion of the market that official statistics didn’t know about.
Dive into this DIY research project by reading the transcript or watching the full session.
Webinar Transcript:
Joe Rydholm:
Hi everybody and welcome to our session “Redefining the Professional Hair Industry in Europe for a Global Industry Leader.” I'm Quirk's Editor, Joe Rydholm.
Before we get started, let's quickly go over the ways you can participate in today's discussion. You can use the chat tab to interact with other attendees during the session and you can use the Q&A tab and to submit questions to the presenters during the session. And we'll answer as many questions as we have time for during the Q&A portion.
Our session today is presented by VisionsLive. Enjoy the presentation!
Nikki Baines:
Hello everybody and thank you for joining us today at the Quirk’s Virtual – DIY event. My name is Nikki and I'm a business development manager for VisionsLive.
I've been with the company for about four years now. So, learning all things. We are a quality research platform, so we are absolute quals. I've got my colleague, Spencer, here with me today.
Spencer Wood:
Like Nikki said, my name is Spencer.
I started at VisionsLive as an intern. I've had a few roles since then. My current role is senior international key account manager, and I started here almost seven years ago now, but I'm still enjoying it today as much as I was at the beginning
Nikki Baines:
And we've not paid him to say that either. He literally does enjoy it.
So, for the past three years, VisionsLive has been working with one of the hair industry’s leading brands, just to better understand the hair market in the DACH region.
For those of you who don't know, the DACH region is the central European area made up of Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
Spencer has been working on this entire project for the past three years. It's still going on and it's going to be going on for the foreseeable future. He has been heading up this project and helping our client with this. He's the best person to talk about this today.
So, we're going to go through how we helped our client redefine the professional hair industry in Europe. But just before we do that, just to give you a little bit of an introduction as to who we are because like I said at the start, we work for VisionsLive, but if you've never heard of us, we were actually the first people to enter the online qualitative research space back in 2006.
So we've been around for about 18 years now and as I said as well at the start, we are a leading provider of qualitative research tools and services. We are full on qualies and we deal in qualitative research purely.
In that 16 years we have worked with a really solid network of recruiters and moderators so we can offer a full service and help our clients with not only the use of the platform but also get respondents for them and moderators for them.
Or it could be that clients want to use our platform as a very much DIY platform where they'll just literally log in, set up their own sessions and use the platform as if it were their own. And that's the DIY approach and this is why the Quirk’s DIY research event appealed to us and why we wanted to kind of come on and do this presentation because not only are we a DIY platform, this particular project is all about DIY and how we've kind of utilized the DIY tools to help our clients.
So, Spence is going to go into all the details of that.
So, with that in mind then Spencer, could you just tell us a little bit about the research program and what it is?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so our client is a global leader in the manufacturing of tools and products in the hair industry. And they've started to notice over the last few years a rise in new brands coming up, but also a change in the behavior and attitudes of current brands.
So they came to the realization that they needed to start doing their own research to make sure that they were staying on top of and ahead of the trends and ideas and being developed in the market, but also to make sure that they had an actual better understanding of the market itself and what professionals in the market want and need.
Nikki Baines:
Okay. So we've got a little bit of a recruitment timeline coming up here because you obviously had to do the recruitment for this project and take on all of that. Can you just briefly explain this recruitment timeline to us?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so you can see that we attempted to begin the recruitment in December, 2021. It's an ongoing thing. So, our last actual effort started in June or July 2024. There'll be more to come in 2025, 26 and so on.
When we did start, I attempted to start because it was a bit of a stickler to begin with because I quickly realized that from mid-December to mid-January, Germany shuts down, the DACH region shuts down for a whole month and I was trying to e-mail and call people and getting no response.
I think around about New Year's Day I was calling a company called [a salon in Germany] and I was very lucky because a lady called Ella, who's the owner of the company, walked into the office, heard the phone ring and picked it up and let me know that I was very lucky that she'd answered and that I won't be getting a response from anybody in the region for another couple of weeks at least. So, I learned from that.
But the actual recruitment timeline you can see here when we recruited participants, you can break it down a bit simpler for you.
So, the first year and second year we tried to recruit a thousand participants in each year to build two separate panels where we could then look at year on year analytics, but then we also had a base of more than 2,000 participants that we could work with for projects that we could bring them together on.
Then later on we started to make a more specialized effort. We started to try and aim for a specific portion of the market that we thought we were missing.
But we also built a ‘super panel’ in this time where we took our original two panels, our communities that as we like to call them and based on some clinical research, we took some of those individuals and put them into a separate panel as well.
So, it's a constant effort and the recruitment for such a big program is just as important as the research, really.
Nikki Baines:
That's very true and I think obviously if it wasn't for that lovely lady just happening to pop into the office and pick up something and hear the phone ring and have you on the other end of the phone, you would probably wondered why right at the start of this project nobody was picking up your calls in Germany. So, that was very lucky indeed.
In terms of that then, what does the research mean for the client?
Spencer Wood:
The research spans across several continents for them and it's pretty much become the epicenter of all their decision making.
It shapes what products they are going to make, it shapes their communication with professionals and also where they place their resources.
It's really led to quite a large overhaul in their global strategy and quite a few changes in their actual internal infrastructure so far.
Nikki Baines:
Okay. How does VisionsLive fit into the equation then?
Spencer Wood:
So, we were tasked with taking over the European side of things. They came to us and asked us to look after the European continent.
Originally, they suggested starting in the U.K., but then they changed this to the DACH region, which like Nikki said is Germany, Austria, Switzerland, but we also included Luxembourg because there's quite a lot of cultural similarities and it's right at the heart of Europe, it's right in the center.
Of course, you may realize as well from what Nikki said, we are a qualitative research platform provider, so this wasn't really within our remit. It was a huge new thing for us to take on, but the client, based on working with us, trusted us and despite knowing that it wasn't our forte, chose to offer us this opportunity anyway.
Nikki Baines:
That's right, isn't it? Because I remember the client was actually working with us anyway prior to asking you to manage the European end of the program, weren't they?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, the program actually began a year prior and in a different continent and they decided that for the qualitative side of things, they wanted to use us.
They came to us to run their AV focus groups, their interviews, their bulletin boards and they really, really liked the tools. They were impressed with them, but they were also really impressed with the support that they got. We like to go above and beyond for our clients, but we do that in other ways as well.
In our focus groups and in our interviews, we actually have a member of the team sit in from the start to the end. So, if there's any issues or the moderator has any questions, there's always somebody at hand, which they were really impressed with.
They asked for a meeting to discuss the potentiality was taking it on. We looked at the logistics of it and of course this meant a lot of internal conversations because it was so different from what we had been doing, but we decided to dive in headfirst.
We were confident we could do it, and this meant for the first time we were doing things like recruitment. We do have a wonderful network of suppliers that we use regularly, but we don't actually go out and do this stuff ourselves.
So, for the first time we were doing the recruitment ourselves, we were building a panel or like I say we like to call it a community. We were managing that panel, we were maintaining it, we were translating internally as opposed to using our suppliers. We were analyzing data, reporting on it and we were even doing the marketing for somebody else as opposed to just doing our own marketing.
You can imagine taking on something like that, which we've not done before, it's quite a lot. So it was quite scary to begin with. But at VisionsLive we do pride ourselves on how we care for each other in the office and our clients as well. So when we said yes to it, we were pretty confident that we were going to succeed with it.
Nikki Baines:
Yeah, we’re nothing if not confident.
So, what was the plan and what obstacles did you face when trying to enact that plan?
Spencer Wood:
When we started, a lot of the research was already set, which was great. Like I said, this began a year prior in a different continent.
We could take that research, we could administer it in our own region. Of course, we'd have to translate it first and we'd obviously have to make it appropriate for the region because I mean one continent to another, there's going to be some big differences culturally. The easiest way I can explain that is with brand preferences.
For example, if you asked a question about that, there's going to be different brands in one region to another region. So, we had to make it appropriate, but we also had to make sure that we were being inclusive of the headquarters in the region.
We spoke to the directors in Germany, asked if they had any internal questions they'd like to ask, which would fit into the topic of that research that we were doing, and then we could administer that and then they could get some more short-term findings when this is overall a long-term thing.
We did that and a lot of that started off as surveys really to build broad trends and the foundational characteristics of things and surveys, as we all know is quantitative.
And again, we're a qual company. So, that was a challenge to begin with. We had to learn how to use quantitative tools, we had to learn new methods when it came to things like logic, validation, filtering, that kind of stuff.
It took a lot of practice, but we've got there now, and we do have an expertise where we can do that. We know some great online quantitative tools so we can use them and then it would develop from there generally into the qual side of things where we would actually use Visionslive’s amazing AB focus group tools, in depth interviews, bulletin boards to get more into the details of things.
But before we could do any of that, we of course had to build a community, we had to actually bring participants on, we had to recruit them.
You can see here Nikki has brought up a lovely picture of the homepage that our participants see when they come in where they can actually engage with blog posts and polls. They can post to each other and the new surveys come up on here.
It's a way of keeping them engaged in the research in those times where we may be reporting on different things so there's a bit of a lull. That's why we like to refer to it more of as a community. We like to keep that feel.
Nikki Baines:
So, in terms of that then, sort of becoming familiar with the quant side of things, administering the first survey and setting up this community, did you find that difficult
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, hugely, particularly the community. There was a lot of major obstacles that we ran into.
Of course, the lack of experience is one that we already mentioned. There was a limited capacity because it was only really me that was looking after it. We did have little bits of help.
There was also brand recognition. As you may have noticed, I've not mentioned our client's name. We can't do that because if that gets around to our participants and they find out then when they're actually responding to our research, there's going to be bias and that would just kill the whole program.
There were limited opportunities, there were only so many events that we could go to and there's actually a lot less in the DACH region than places like the U.K. where there's a lot more going on.
And of course there was a language barrier. I don't speak German, that's the best sentence I can say.
So yeah, there were quite a few difficult things that we had to deal with.
Nikki Baines:
Good sentence to have though, when you are needing to speak to German people.
How did you handle those limited opportunities then?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so I highlighted seven key areas. You can see them on screen. These are wholesalers, distributors, info portals, trade fairs, associations (i.e. unions) and social media pages and influencers.
I approached people in all different areas. I tried to make inroads in every area that I could. And what I found was most useful was utilizing mailing lists primarily.
From one wholesaler as an example we did an exclusive newsletter with a huge retailer in the region, where they sent out a blast to their mailing list. That was very successful.
The lovely lady who saved me some time by picking up the phone in January of 2021, we worked with her, and we did an article with them, and they sent that out onto their social media pages and that did really well as well.
But the thing that did the most for us was trade shows like Top Hair. We visited several trade shows and expos, but Top Hair, particularly over two events in 22 and 23, we recruited more than a thousand participants. So that was great for us.
Nikki Baines:
Yeah, that sounds amazing. I mean that sounds to me like you've managed that despite those limited opportunities.
Spencer Wood:
One thing with all those different routes that I've just highlighted is that when we were going down those routes and we're trying to find individuals, we realized that every single one of those avenues was leading us to the same profile of individual. And we realized that we were missing quite a hidden proportion, hugely hidden proportion of the market.
We realized this when we went to the Berlin Barber Expo in August of 22. This was just after the first Top Hair and that basically led us to try going down less traditional routes and utilize the resources that we had to make further inroads.
We partnered with an organization called Barb's Experience. They're the ones that had just put on the Berlin Barber Expo and I've formed quite a close relationship with one of their founders, Michael, which is really, really great for us. They're really the only organization of their kind in the barbering industry in Germany and the DACH region really.
We did that and then from that we did the XXL Barber Battle Tour at the end of 2023 going into 24. They went to 11 different stops in the DACH region, nine in Germany, plus Zurich and Vienna. They did barber battles where they found the best barbers to battle it out for a finale at Top Hair this year.
We also did a member recruitment effort where we profiled our community members. We looked for people that were representative of this space, of this hugely hidden proportion of the market and that were also highly active. They were engaged and they gave great feedback.
So we then basically paid them to leave their own barbershops and go into barbershops that were local to them and recruit new individuals for us and that really helped to breach the cultural gap, which was a big issue in us actually finding these individuals.
Other than that we actually used representative influencers. So you can see there's two individuals on the left of your screen right now. One of them, barberkaan, is a member of our community.
I profile the community again, I found him and I noticed that he had a decent following of about 2,300 at the time, but the engagement on his page was a lot better than what his following was. He had a lot of likes, a lot of comments and I noticed he had some very large influencers in the space who were interacting with him a lot.
So, I agreed to a deal with him where he would then post out a 24-hour Instagram story and he posted that out. You can actually see Nikki’s brought his story up on screen actually, where we offered them 40 euros to do a 10-to-15-minute survey.
He's actually posted here the payments that he's received in the past to legitimize what we're doing. And then he actually talks about the survey and about VisionsLive, and this was fantastic for us.
When this went out, I went home and was watching it between 10:00 p.m.-12:00 p.m. sat on my sofa and I was seeing the responses coming through and it was just a huge sigh of relief watching it come through because we've been trying for so long to find these individuals and for the first time it was really, really working and in such a short amount of time.
Based on the success of this, I was allowed to try and broker more deals. And like I said, I highlighted about Kaan that he had some great connections. And what I noticed when I first looked at it was that he just opened a barbershop and he opened it with two other individuals and one of them was a man called wisdomblendz, that's his Instagram handle, but his actual name is Shane and he has more than 200,000 followers.
So, I spoke to Kaan about possibly brokering a deal with him, and Shane is actually famous in the DACH region for something called the Edgar Cut, which he's doing right now on screen.
So, the Edgar cut is basically like a bowl cut crossed with a Caesar cut and it's quite funny to look at, but it's also quite admirable when it's done as de does it. He's so good with what he does that it kind looks good. But yeah, he's on the Late Night Building show here. He was a special guest and he's actually cutting one of the producers hair, I think.
So, it's very cool. So yeah, Shane agreed to do it. Kaan agreed to do a second post and 24 hours later after we got those two posts out, we'd recruited more than 500 new individuals, representative of that space that we've been trying to hit for more than five months.
It was really, really great. It was a big moment for us.
Nikki Baines:
Yeah, huge moment from the sounds of it.
Spencer Wood:
Yeah.
Nikki Baines:
I’m not necessarily a fan of that haircut myself, I've got to say. It just really reminds me of Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber, but I mean if it's working for wisdomblendz, then great.
So that's really, really good.
Earlier you mentioned a limited capacity and language barrier, didn't you? So, how did you manage those?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so I sat down for a meeting with Jonathan Tyson, who's our operations director, about six months into the program. We just had a chat about where we were up to at this point, how things were going, how we could make things go better in the future, although they were going well at the time. I highlighted two things which were that limited capacity and the language barrier.
So, the first thing we did to handle the limited capacity was to change my role.
I was project team manager at the time, which meant I was doing this and handling smaller projects whilst managing the team. So, we changed me over to key council so I could solely focus on this.
And we needed a German speaker. We had thought we were going to get this earlier, but we didn't. We thought we're just going to bring this individual in internally.
Then we brought on Valentina, who speaks German, although she's Ukrainian. She speaks five languages, she's fantastic like that. She really solved that problem, but she also increased capacity for us again, and I don't really know how I handled those first six months without having her in the team. So, she's great.
Nikki Baines:
Yeah, she's brilliant. There she's on the screen, she's amazing. Not just for the project. You said you don't know how you managed the first six months of the project without her, but I don't know how we ever managed in the VisionsLive office without her because she's just brilliant. She looks after us all and takes care of everybody. She's the best.
So, how did you handle a lack of experience in brand recognition then? That must have been tough.
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so of course these things generally come with time. You can't force people to recognize you. And even if they do recognize you, you can't force them to trust you. It takes time.
Like I said, VisionsLive is U.K., but we are a global company. We have clients all over the world and we especially have quite a few clients in the DACH region. And Nikki, I know you yourself and John, operations director, go to expos there quite regularly.
But obviously these have nothing to do with the hair industry, so we don't have any recognition in the hair industry. I realized to really get this going at the speed we wanted it going, I kind of had to piggyback and use the recognition of others and their trust to bolster our own in a way.
That's when we marketed with organizations like we did. We partnered with Barber's Experience, Top Hair, we worked with these influencers and we also had to use our client to grease the wheels to be honest in some places because people just won't get back to us and it's such a unique proposition when I try and partner with them with what we're doing, it's really hard to get them engaged.
So, where we could, we'd use our clients to grease the wheel without revealing too much that we were partnered, and we'd also study what had been done before. So, we'd look at what the program prior had been doing, see what actions worked for them, what didn't work, and we'd try and take the positives and use them. So, like I say, we used the recognition of others where we could bolster our own in a way.
A good example I can give you of this is at the first Top Hair, we partnered with a company called Glint. Basically, most of the day was almost gone and we recruited about a hundred people, which wasn't good enough for the amount of money that was being spent to go to this place.
And it was because we didn't have the trust of individuals. We were giving them 50 euros cash for their personal information, but they didn't know us.
Personal information like e-mail addresses, names, phone numbers, so we could actually contact them about the research, and we'd tell them that they could unsubscribe at any time, but they just didn't know us, so they didn't trust us, so they weren't taken to it.
In the end, I partnered with Glint, I walked off the stand, I spoke with them, a lot of them are licensed, we got them to signed up. We spoke about the process, they trusted us. Then anybody that came to their stand they directed to us and said, ‘we trust them. Go get 50 euros, cash, sign up, do this research.’
In the last couple hours we had a flood, everybody was around our stand and we more than doubled our tally for the day in those last couple hours. And when everybody was leaving, the professionals on the stands left their stands and came over to us to sign up as well. So, it was great.
These days we do have a bit more recognition. We have sponsored these events, so we do have a bit more trust as well, but it's still something that we're working on, and we'll keep improving.
Nikki Baines:
I think it's difficult, isn't it, to get that trust and get people to want to hand their details over anyway, but certainly in Germany where privacy laws are very different to here.
When I asked you first about the limited opportunities, you mentioned that you realized you were missing a huge previously hidden proportion of the market. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so it's important to give you a bit of background first.
In Germany you would assume, being a big country with a big population, there's a lot of barbershops, but it's only really a recent development. In the ‘50s and ‘60s the barbering industry died out.
In just the last 10-20 years they started to make a resurgence. The official statistics in Germany show that there's about 115,000 hairdressers or stylists, but only about 5,000 barbers.
When we started this, that kind of made sense because we were reaching out to these organizations, and we were trying to specifically recruit barbers. And when we were speaking to them, they were telling us that they didn't have any barbers for us, they only had hairdressers or stylists. That all made sense at first.
There is a bit of a gray area with individuals who refer themselves as a Herrenfriseur, which directly translates as ‘male hairdressers,’ but these individuals cut anywhere between 50 to 100% of their appointments being male.
The issue with herrenfriseurs is that a lot of them work in salons that might have a barber corner, or they cut women's hair as well. So, it means they share a lot of behaviors and attitudes with hairdressers. So, we can't really refer to them as barbers.
Some of them will be barbers. They will actually behave like barbers. But I think because it's more accepted to be a hairdresser in Germany, they will call themselves a herrenfriseur to fit in with the culture.
Nikki Baines:
Okay, so herrenfriseur, am I saying that right?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah.
Nikki Baines:
So, this was the hidden market then, is that right?
Spencer Wood:
No, sorry. I just wanted to give you a bit of background with regards to the culture there.
In Germany, they kind of stay clear of barbering professionals. Organizations stay clear of it as well. But when it came to what we were doing, even though it looked like there weren't that many barbers and we kind of accepted it at that time, we needed to bring barbers on because we know that they drive the market, they're the ones that go out and they buy more.
They look for the next flashy thing, they look for what's coming next if it's innovative. So, they're the ones that want to go out and try these things. Then the hairdressers and stylists in the market tend to follow. So, even if there's not many of them, we needed them to get sufficient results in our research from them so we could understand that.
We continued searching for them and that's what led us to the Berlin Barber Expo where we tried to target them more specifically.
But before I talk about this, I should just mention something that we found out at Top Hair before this. Which was that when we're trying to sign people up, they don't have a license on them. It's something that is apparent in the DACH region, they are not given a plastic card or anything like that. They get their certificate and then they put it on the wall in their salon. There's no way of actually licensing them.
So, when we went to the Berlin Barber Expo, we knew that we couldn't really verify them in this way. But we still asked the question because actually seeing how they respond to questions is one of the ways that we verified them anyway.
But at the Berlin Barbo Expo, they were very open in telling me they don't have a license. Almost none of them had a license and they were working completely fine in the region.
I had to, in the end, kind of go against the advice from our client and sign these individuals up despite them saying that they had no verification, viral license because I could see they were professionals working in the industry via other methods. I went against those instructions and hoped that later on when I explained it to my client, because I'm in the heat of the moment, I'm at the expo, I've got to do it now, they would understand.
I had numerous moments like that at these expos and trade fairs where I had to improvise and hope that they'd understand. Luckily, they've always been very happy with the decisions that I've taken.
Nikki Baines:
I think managing this project as much as you have for the past three years, you're going to have to make executive decisions like that on behalf of the client. But you are acting on behalf of the client, making sure that they get the best from this research. So, you've only got their best interests at heart, haven't you?
But if I can just take you back to the lack of licenses then, what did that mean for the research?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so we grew to understand of course that there are barber shops all over Germany. There is a huge population, and 5,000 barbers doesn't quite make sense. There were several occasions where this belief got stronger and stronger, but it was very hard to explain this to the client.
It was hard to tell them basically that they'd been getting their strategy wrong because they'd been basing it around a different market for a long time. You can imagine from their side, that's quite hard to hear.
So, we did things to bolster our actual representation of the community. We did the member recruitment effort; we did the influencers. We canceled Top Hair this year because we knew that we wouldn't get what we needed from that in terms of the profile of individual, but we had to keep finding ways to actually convince our client of what was going on.
So, one thing we did, which really helped kind of turn things, was we profiled again our community, and I picked out six individuals from about 1,750 at this point to take part in a three hour online group discussion where we talked about the market.
They were representative, and one key thing that we asked them was to give an estimate of how many barbers there are in their region and how many barbershops. Their regional figures that they gave blew away what the actual official statistics show.
They kind of had to start coming around to the idea at that point.
Nikki Baines:
Okay. Well, so on that then, Spencer, I think this is our final reflection.
Did anybody use to watch Jerry Springer? Final thoughts. Springer's, final thoughts. Showing my age there, but still where are you now in this research?
Spencer Wood:
Yeah, so this has been our biggest year to date. We've done some really key critical research that we've been building towards over the last couple of years and that's allowed us to make this ‘super panel’ that I mentioned, where we've actually taken from our previous panels and taken these core segments and those individuals will be used for more specific detailed research and they may even find out some extra things as well whilst they're in there. So that's very cool.
2025 is looking really exciting and the client's actually implementing changes now based on this research. So that's great.
In terms of DIY, we've had to go beyond traditional methods to find these kinds of things and we wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise if we weren't doing it ourselves. If we were reaching out using our suppliers, we would never have got where we have today.
We've kind of worked as an internal cog in our client's team. We've been that involved and that's why we've been able to make as much progress as we have for ourselves.
We've got three years' experience now, which is fantastic. We're capable of running these programs. We can keep making this one great going forward, but we could also take on other ones. We've got expertise when it comes to using quantitative tools so we can do that as well.
And it means that now if a client came to us and asked to do qual, we could also say to them, why not put all your eggs in one basket? And we could tell them how we could help them with quant, and we could use those tools online to do the whole thing for them as well and manage that.
It's just been great. It's great for the company. It's great for us as individuals. I really enjoyed doing this and if you were offered this opportunity as well, I would tell you to do it. If you have an opportunity that comes to you to do it yourself as a company, as individuals, I would say to go out and do it.
Market research is constantly growing at VisionsLive. We know that you need to grow with it. That's why we're constantly updating our tools.
We offer our employees the chance to go out and do courses to update their skillset, but also to use their skillset that they already have if they can in another way in the office to let us know and it gets utilized. We try and make the best of everybody and use everybody.
Be fluid and do it, do it yourself, give it go.
Nikki Baines:
Well, thank you so much for that, Spencer.
Although we work for the same company, we do work in different departments, so I've learned so much from doing this presentation with Spencer. About this particular project and what he's been doing for the past three years. So, thank you so much for that Spencer, really insightful.
Thank you so much for your input and thank you all for watching.
Spencer Wood:
Thank you.